Getting What You Intend from Your Organizational Design -- Business Breakthrough 3.0 with Ken Gavranovic

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What does your subconscious mind have to do with how

 

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you run your business? Well, a lot more than you might

 

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expect. We have an extra special show today.

 

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Are you ready? Let's go.

 

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This is the Modern Digital Business podcast, the technical

 

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leaders guide to modernizing your applications and digital business.

 

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Whether you're a business technology leader or a small business innovator,

 

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keeping up with the digital business revolution is a must.

 

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Here to help make it easier with actionable insights and recommendations,

 

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as well as thoughtful interviews with industry experts. Lee Atchison.

 

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My guest today is a great friend of mine. He's been a CEO,

 

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a CPO, a CTO, and founder of his own

 

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company that he successfully brought to an IPO.

 

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I've worked with him for many years, and we've recently co authored

 

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a book that talks specifically about building a better business.

 

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He is one of my very best friends, Ken Gerardovich.

 

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Ken. Welcome to modern digital business. Lee,

 

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thanks for having me on. I'm really excited about our conversation and so

 

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excited about our book. I'm so excited about this book as well, too.

 

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So just to get everyone on the same page, ken and I

 

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co wrote a book. It's been in the works for

 

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about 1518 months now, and it's been

 

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released just recently. I'm very proud to announce the

 

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rival my latest book. Ken, your first book, business Breakthrough

 

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3.0. Ken, how does it feel now to be a published

 

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author? Well, it's exciting, and obviously,

 

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I couldn't have done it without you, Lee. So it was really exciting to work

 

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with somebody who's actually written books in the past and put

 

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into place something that you and I have seen so

 

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many times is companies are

 

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really only a collection of people, and they have those entrenched patterns.

 

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And if you can really think through those patterns, not only do you

 

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build a highly profitable, fast moving organization, but I know

 

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one of the key things. You and I were both excited. That's a win for

 

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the company, but it's also a win for the employees,

 

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because when you create that kind of dynamic organization,

 

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customers love the business, and employees simply love their job.

 

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Ken, when you and I first started working on the book, we focused

 

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a lot on what we call the subconscious mentality and how

 

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organizations have a subconscious mentality. When I think of

 

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in our own subconscious minds, the thing that comes to mind the most is

 

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when you see commercials for

 

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restaurants showing you pictures of food that make you hungry,

 

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and you're more likely to spend more money, the more,

 

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the hungrier you are. I can actually say those words.

 

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I really can. But the idea is, your subconscious is what's equating

 

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the site of food with the actual increase

 

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in hunger. It's not a real increase in hunger. It's a perceived subconscious

 

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reaction to seeing the food. The same sort of

 

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mentality applies to businesses as well.

 

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Businesses have their own minds. Yeah. Well, let's go back

 

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just to that part about us individually, because I've spent a lot of time

 

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thinking about why I do the way things I do, why employees,

 

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what's really the motivator? And I'm again, big believer,

 

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aside from the business part, is we all have kind of got this subconscious

 

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mind that's running us really based upon patterns that

 

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are millions of years old.

 

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We feel safety in numbers. Why? Because a long time ago, maybe a

 

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dinosaur might have eaten us if we weren't safety in

 

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numbers. You think about training like you've ever heard like NLP,

 

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where our mirror matching, where if somebody has the same posture

 

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as us, we feel more comfortable with that person. Well,

 

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you think about businesses. Businesses are really just a collection

 

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of people that believe in those same kind of patterns.

 

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If you're not careful, could be running your business, could be poisoning

 

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your business, or could be really helping your business scale. And I think that was

 

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one of the things that we thought, like, there's something really here to uncover

 

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because it's really the patterns of success. Yeah, that's absolutely right.

 

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It's breaking old patterns, creation of new patterns that

 

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make sense for your organization and rebuilding

 

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your business essentially from the ground up. So we

 

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talked a lot about the importance of culture and we both know that

 

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culture is critical to every organization.

 

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Ken, what do you think about that?

 

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Well, I always think about we've talked about this and

 

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worked with a lot of companies. A lot of companies. Like if you walk in

 

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and you say, hey, culture is important, everybody will say Culture

 

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is important. Every consultant will say, Culture is important. Every company

 

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will say, yes, culture is important here. But what we talk about is

 

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really being purposeful in your culture, defining it

 

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and living it. Because again, a lot of times people have words.

 

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But culture is really powerful because it encompasses

 

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not only your mission, your vision, your set of core values,

 

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but how you're living it. Like, for example, let's say that

 

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your culture is no aholes here, just throwing it

 

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out like raw. But you have a salesperson

 

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or you have a leader who's fantastic at their job but treats

 

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everybody like dirt. And leadership overlooks that

 

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you're not living your culture. And that's like a poison in

 

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the body, a poison in your company that just feeds in

 

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and slowly all the people that showed up because of the culture

 

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disappear. And usually those are your best people. And Leah,

 

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obviously we don't name companies and all that kind of stuff, especially different experiences,

 

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but we've seen companies where they have a culture that attracts

 

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the best talent. Like people hear about it,

 

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they come the top talent even if they're not getting top dollars,

 

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join the company. And then suddenly they

 

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don't announce that they've changed the culture, but they start to hire people that are

 

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not aligned to that culture. And bad things happen.

 

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Yeah. The mindset that we need to make

 

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money or we need to solve this business problem and this person will

 

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solve this business problem. I know they've got these

 

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cultural issues. We'll just deal with those separately. In fact, the matter

 

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is you don't deal with them separately and you can't deal with those

 

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sorts of issues separately. They're part of your culture. And if you don't stay

 

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aligned with your culture, your whole organization will fall apart.

 

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Yeah. And that's where I like in our book, we really tried to

 

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have actionable ideas. Like, we're talking about it here at the high level.

 

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What is Mission Vision and how do you set about a

 

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core values? But we also talk about how do you actually activate

 

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that, how do you instill that in your organization?

 

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And we talk about even some of the metrics I forgot the

 

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exact metric. But if you think about employees that

 

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say they're engaged, the quality of work

 

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that they do, versus somebody who feels they're just a cog on the wheel,

 

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they're just going through the motions. And the efficiencies are night and

 

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day at all scales of organizations.

 

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We know that culture is important. Yeah, that's so

 

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true, Lee. And just think about it from a stats. I know one

 

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of the things that really got us motivated is

 

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this is crazy. Literally two thirds of

 

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us. Employees are not actively engaged in work. That means

 

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that they're going to work and they're not bringing their whole self.

 

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Two thirds of the entire employee base

 

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in the United States, according to one survey, are not actively

 

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engaged. Not only is that a terrible way for them to

 

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spend, the most important thing that they have on this planet

 

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is their personal time. That's a waste. But that's a waste

 

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of efficiency also for the company. So one of the things that I'm a big

 

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believer of doing culture and some of the things that we share in the book

 

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and doing it right is the impact it has not only

 

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to get to the employees, but the companies. And what we're

 

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seeing when people do it right and do some of the things we've talked about

 

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as much as a 30% to 40% uplift

 

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in the efficiency of the organization registered by multiple different

 

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frameworks. But just as importantly,

 

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I think, to both of us, is you see almost the

 

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same amount of increase, sometimes 30, 40, 50,

 

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60% of employees saying that they're

 

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actively engaged in their job. In other words, they enjoy what

 

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they're doing and they feel that they deliver value every day. So this is

 

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a huge win, the things we're talking about. That's why I'm so excited again

 

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to be on the podcast. And it's part of that subconscious

 

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mindset that creates the organization. And that's

 

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the data that makes this really a true statement.

 

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Now we're talking about measuring here now

 

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and the sorts of data that you can measure and should

 

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measure in order to show that you're making improvements in the organization.

 

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But what we're finding is that companies

 

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often make one of three mistakes when they determine

 

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what data they want to measure. They either measure not

 

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enough data, they're insufficient in

 

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determining what they're trying to measure within their organization,

 

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or they measure too much data. They're gathering every little piece

 

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of data and then they can't get value out of that quantity of data that's

 

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available to them. Or they just measure the

 

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wrong things. They're measuring something that is irrelevant

 

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to what the real core problem is.

 

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Ken, what's your thoughts on those three things? Well, I think we

 

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point this out of the book. There's a couple of things I'm a big believer

 

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is at the end of the day, people always do what

 

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they're incentivized to do. So you got to be really careful as

 

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a leader, as head of a company,

 

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what you measure. And they always

 

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say measure what matters. But I like to think about a different way.

 

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And I think we hit this out in the book. I know you and I

 

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are 100% aligned is outcomes over activity is

 

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what are the key outcomes. And that goes kind of ties into some of the

 

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frameworks, whether it be objective key results or different critical

 

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thinking frameworks. But you need to measure the right

 

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thing. You need to keep in mind be careful what you measure and

 

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display. We also talk about showing it to employees. Like if you're measuring it at

 

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the executive level and no one sees the data, you might as well not do

 

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it. It's not going to drive any behaviors. What you want to do

 

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is measure outcomes. So outcomes is what

 

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you drive, not activity. Because think about how many

 

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times we've seen a really big

 

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400 million dollar It transformation.

 

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Everybody has a bunch of activity. Checkmark the

 

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project's on time, on plan, and then it fails on

 

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delivering the outcomes. I think we

 

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talked a little bit about this in the book. One Fortune

 

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50 healthcare company that had done in this case a cloud

 

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transformation, they failed and

 

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spent I think 5100 million dollars. The first time they failed,

 

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did 5000 million in both those times they were measuring

 

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activity. We're going to go to the cloud and then we're going to

 

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be more agile. Our teams are going to be more engaged,

 

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we're going to be able to recruit better people. It wasn't until they

 

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really focused on why are we going to the cloud, it's really to drive that

 

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agility what are the outcomes we're trying to drive with this activity,

 

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in this case moving to the cloud. And so I'm a big believer,

 

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whatever it is, focus the teams. And again, I know we've got

 

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this in the book, focus on those outcomes over activity

 

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and then make it visible to the employees, share it with everybody so they know

 

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how they're being measured, which is on outcomes. And teams can

 

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pivot. I know we talk about autonomy with constraints in the book,

 

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but if you've got your teams aligned with the outcome, then everybody's rowing in

 

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the same direction. They're in different parts of your organization,

 

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but they're no longer siloed. They're working together. And you give them

 

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the autonomy because they can pivot on the strategy to get the

 

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outcome as long as they achieve that outcome.

 

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Yeah, that fits in really well into something that I don't think we

 

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talk specifically about in the book, but I certainly talk a lot about.

 

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And that's what I call the Valley of despair.

 

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This is when you're going through a migration or a transformation project.

 

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Inevitably, as you go through that project,

 

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the disadvantages of the migration show up

 

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before the advantages do. You have to put in effort.

 

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You put in work. You're transforming your application. So your

 

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application slows down before it speeds up. It gets more complex

 

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before it becomes simplified. All of these sorts of things happen,

 

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tend to happen, with the negatives starting to appear

 

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in a large scale project before the positives do. And so

 

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you see a dip in your application and whatever you

 

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value within the organization before you

 

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start seeing the ramp up at the end to the

 

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real value you're looking for. And I call that the Valley of Despair.

 

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That low point. I see so many companies forget

 

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what they're striving for and why they entered this

 

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project in the first place. When they're in this valley, all they're seeing is the

 

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negatives. All they're seeing is the problems. Should we have started this cloud migration?

 

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Things are more expensive now. Things are more complicated now.

 

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Our application is slower. Why did we ever do this?

 

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Well, we did it because of these sets of

 

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objectives that we were trying to accomplish when we got to the cloud,

 

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but we're not there yet. But so many companies will actually stop

 

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right in the middle of that valley when things are worse than they

 

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were before and won't finish their project or won't finish the

 

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migration because they've lost track of what they really valued in the

 

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migration and frankly, why they started doing it in the first place.

 

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They're measuring the wrong things. They're evaluating the wrong things

 

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they're achieving. They're focusing on the wrong objectives.

 

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Leah I think that's so important. That valley just reminds

 

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me going back to at the end of the day, companies are just

 

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collection of people. And I don't know the right way to say I

 

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think I always think about the Kubler Ross change curve. But if you

 

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think about any type of transformation when

 

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you're changing people because people like, we don't like change. Right.

 

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It's uncomfortable at first. It's that shock

 

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and denial, like, why are we even doing this? And then it's

 

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kind of like, oh, disappointment. This isn't going to work. I don't know if this

 

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is going to work. And then once they start to see it, then it's

 

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that pivot, and then you've got that pivot up in acceleration.

 

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And it's funny that you said that. Whether it be like an It project

 

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or I've run marketing teams or sales

 

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teams, you got to have the right strategy. And we talk a lot about in

 

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the book is like, what are the tactical strategies to

 

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succeed? So you have to have that, but you also have to communicate

 

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that transformation you were just hitting is we've got a plan

 

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in human nature. We're all going to have doubts,

 

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but let's stay on the plan, let's focus on the outcomes,

 

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and then we'll get past this dip and everybody will be excited. It's the

 

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same thing. I go back to autonomy. When you first introduce

 

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outcomes over activity into an organization,

 

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at first it's like, wait, what? You're going to

 

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let me make decisions? I'm going to have autonomy.

 

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I don't know if I like that. I think I just like to do what

 

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somebody else said or what's the boss's plan? Or oh, it's this new

 

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transformation leader. I guess we'll do what they say and then

 

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they flip it on you and they say, no, I want you to

 

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drive these outcomes. And then suddenly you're sitting with it as

 

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an individual contributor, as a manager, going through, okay, well,

 

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wait, hold on, I'm responsible for those outcomes. So activity

 

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is no longer success. I don't know if I feel comfortable. But then

 

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going back to human nature, once you feel like now you're in charge of

 

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your own destiny, you know what success is outcomes.

 

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You've got alignment, you've been empowered to make the decisions,

 

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then you start to get that excitement and happiness and you feel so

 

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much more fulfilled in your job. So it's so funny how

 

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whether it's an It project, whether it's a personal transformation,

 

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whether it's a turnaround in the business or turnaround in a team or

 

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new leader, it seems like we always go through that same pattern

 

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of down, okay, is this really going to happen? And then assuming

 

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you've got the right plan up into the right, it all.

 

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Goes to show that a business and a human

 

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being all have the same mentality model.

 

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They have a mentality, they have a personality,

 

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they have a culture that has

 

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to be understood and has to be appreciated in order to

 

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succeed. Yeah, I absolutely

 

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agree. One of the other part I think that goes with that,

 

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what's the other structures? I think we've hit on like company mission, vision,

 

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core values, critical thinking frameworks,

 

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what to measure. But I think the next part is really also as

 

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far as a company and enterprise. And again, you and I

 

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have done Fortune 50 to startups,

 

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been all different sizes. You got to make sure

 

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you have the organizational structure to drive successful

 

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actions. Love to spend a few minutes on

 

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that. Absolutely. That's the next of the

 

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five main distinct processes we talked about. I think that's actually

 

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number four, which is organizational structures

 

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and how your organization

 

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acts, the way it's structured. And if you want to have

 

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your organization respond in a certain way, you want to

 

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organize it in a way that allows that response to occur.

 

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No, I totally agree. And one of the phrases a

 

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mentor of mine used to use when he was thinking about organizational design

 

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principles is I always like those simple phrases,

 

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just think about this is you get what you design for.

 

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And I've seen so many times where,

 

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let's say one team that reports up under this person

 

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and this leader and this other person reports under this leader

 

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and they're not in the same page. And people lower in the organization have lots

 

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of friction. There's just a disconnect. They're misaligned.

 

Speaker: 00:18:43

And people are like, why are these team members misaligned?

 

Speaker: 00:18:47

Well, they're doing exactly what the organization

 

Speaker: 00:18:50

was designed to do. If you have poor organizational

 

Speaker: 00:18:54

design, or again, be very intentional about

 

Speaker: 00:18:58

that, like sometimes from an organizational design you can create healthy

 

Speaker: 00:19:02

tension, which I think in many cases is good for an organization.

 

Speaker: 00:19:05

You've got some kind of checks and balances, but you can also,

 

Speaker: 00:19:09

through poor organizational design, have unhealthy friction.

 

Speaker: 00:19:12

And that's just where people get frustrated with each other. They're not

 

Speaker: 00:19:16

on the same page. So it's really important

 

Speaker: 00:19:19

to do that. And I know we go into some really detailed principles.

 

Speaker: 00:19:23

If people haven't heard of Federated direct

 

Speaker: 00:19:27

line reports center of Practice we go into a lot of

 

Speaker: 00:19:31

different people processes that you can set up from an organizational design

 

Speaker: 00:19:35

so that you get the outcomes that you're driving for because we can have

 

Speaker: 00:19:38

all the other things done right. But if you have poor organizational design you're

 

Speaker: 00:19:42

going to have poor results. I think back to a

 

Speaker: 00:19:46

rather small example, but I think a very pointed example. I think a

 

Speaker: 00:19:49

lot of us might relate to. My very first project out of

 

Speaker: 00:19:53

college. I was working at Hewlett Packard and had

 

Speaker: 00:19:56

a manager that there's this two person project.

 

Speaker: 00:20:00

There was a person who was writing the code and a person that was testing

 

Speaker: 00:20:03

the code. And my first job was to test this code.

 

Speaker: 00:20:09

I was straight out of college, wanted to do well in my job.

 

Speaker: 00:20:12

I wanted to know what are my requirements, what am I supposed to accomplish?

 

Speaker: 00:20:15

My manager said, Your job is to find as many bugs as you possibly

 

Speaker: 00:20:18

can. So I set out to find as many bugs as

 

Speaker: 00:20:22

I possibly can. And every time I found a bug, I said, I found another

 

Speaker: 00:20:25

one, here's another one. And I was so happy that I was doing

 

Speaker: 00:20:29

what I was supposed to be doing. And I was reporting to my manager saying,

 

Speaker: 00:20:32

look at all these bugs I found, look at all these bugs I found.

 

Speaker: 00:20:35

And everything was great till suddenly my coworker sat

 

Speaker: 00:20:39

me down one day and said, why are you celebrating so much

 

Speaker: 00:20:42

of the mistakes I'm making. And that's when

 

Speaker: 00:20:46

I realized that, no, that wasn't really what I should

 

Speaker: 00:20:49

have been trying to do. That's what I was directed to do. That's what I

 

Speaker: 00:20:53

was being rated on doing. That's what I was being graded

 

Speaker: 00:20:56

on doing. But that wasn't the goal. The goal was the both of us

 

Speaker: 00:21:00

was building something that was supposed to be high quality.

 

Speaker: 00:21:03

So we sat down, we figured out what we really should be judging each other

 

Speaker: 00:21:07

on, brought that back up to our manager, who totally

 

Speaker: 00:21:10

agreed and went with that. But it was just a simple example.

 

Speaker: 00:21:14

But that same sort of problem shows up in larger

 

Speaker: 00:21:18

organizations of different sizes of shapes, et cetera, is you

 

Speaker: 00:21:22

get what you organize for, you get what you value

 

Speaker: 00:21:26

within the organization. And that may be good,

 

Speaker: 00:21:30

that may be bad, but whatever it is that you're asking for is

 

Speaker: 00:21:33

what you're going to get. And that may not fit in well with the

 

Speaker: 00:21:37

rest of the organization and may not be actually what you're looking for. You have

 

Speaker: 00:21:40

to think more expansively about what you're trying to accomplish in

 

Speaker: 00:21:44

order to get the right goals for the organization rather than

 

Speaker: 00:21:48

the individual goals. No, I think that's so

 

Speaker: 00:21:52

spot on. Lee. And again, one of the things that I know we really try

 

Speaker: 00:21:55

to do in this book is really put a how to to do some of

 

Speaker: 00:21:58

these things because I've seen so many times where people just don't have

 

Speaker: 00:22:01

the experience. Or maybe not even the power to maybe they've got

 

Speaker: 00:22:05

the experience. But how to articulate that? Maybe to their

 

Speaker: 00:22:09

boss, their VP, their SVP, their CIO, their CTO, their CPO.

 

Speaker: 00:22:13

But these things show up repeatedly. And I'll give you just a couple

 

Speaker: 00:22:17

of examples. I think some of them we put in the book. There was

 

Speaker: 00:22:21

a company that I worked with again, private Fortune 50

 

Speaker: 00:22:25

company. And as part of like a cost move, they said,

 

Speaker: 00:22:28

you know, in Agile we don't need any project managers,

 

Speaker: 00:22:32

so we're going to get rid of all of them except

 

Speaker: 00:22:37

for this core team at the corporate location.

 

Speaker: 00:22:40

So we're going to take them all out of the business units immediately

 

Speaker: 00:22:44

because Agile is magic and you never need anybody to do any projects or coordinate

 

Speaker: 00:22:48

anything. And so they had this team and

 

Speaker: 00:22:52

these teams were assigned to

 

Speaker: 00:22:55

business units. So business units could say, hey, I'd like to

 

Speaker: 00:22:59

have this resource. But there was no

 

Speaker: 00:23:02

structural alignment. So they reported to somebody in kind of,

 

Speaker: 00:23:06

quote, corporate. And so what would happen is the

 

Speaker: 00:23:09

person at corporate would take people off those projects

 

Speaker: 00:23:13

because somebody else was louder at a different business unit.

 

Speaker: 00:23:17

So what happens? Again, you get what you design for.

 

Speaker: 00:23:20

So the business units, they had somebody that did this role. Now there's

 

Speaker: 00:23:24

somebody at corporate that could come or go at any time. They had no visibility.

 

Speaker: 00:23:28

So what did they do? They do what people naturally do. They created some

 

Speaker: 00:23:32

new title called something else that's not project manager that did all

 

Speaker: 00:23:35

of the exact same roles as before. And the inefficiency that the

 

Speaker: 00:23:39

organization was trying to solve for, they created even more because now they had this

 

Speaker: 00:23:43

central team that no one really trusted or did anything with plus

 

Speaker: 00:23:46

copies of all of that back in all the business units

 

Speaker: 00:23:50

versus and this is that term we used. Again, I know it's a lot for

 

Speaker: 00:23:53

those of us, maybe this is my too heavy lifting, but that term Federated or

 

Speaker: 00:23:58

Direct, like who's your customer? So if they would have been clear

 

Speaker: 00:24:02

that that central team lived to serve

 

Speaker: 00:24:06

the business units and were federated to the business

 

Speaker: 00:24:10

units leader, so who's the customer? Not that central

 

Speaker: 00:24:13

leader. That central leader was designed to serve the business units,

 

Speaker: 00:24:17

that structure would have given the company the savings they were looking for

 

Speaker: 00:24:21

and not have created that duplicate. So again,

 

Speaker: 00:24:25

super important. I just want to give one other example for the poor product

 

Speaker: 00:24:29

marketing people that are almost in any company I've seen this so many

 

Speaker: 00:24:33

times is product marketing reports to marketing

 

Speaker: 00:24:37

and then products frustrated with product marketing

 

Speaker: 00:24:40

because they're not communicating it the way the product leader sees

 

Speaker: 00:24:43

the vision. They're communicating it how the marketing team sees the vision.

 

Speaker: 00:24:48

Or if product marketing reports to product,

 

Speaker: 00:24:53

then marketing team is really frustrated because they're not getting all the

 

Speaker: 00:24:56

things that they need to share in the marketplace because

 

Speaker: 00:25:00

it's going according to what product thinks is important.

 

Speaker: 00:25:03

And in both cases, either one of those is simply

 

Speaker: 00:25:07

wrong. This is a really good example is you have to decide

 

Speaker: 00:25:10

where do you want to have the hard line report and you want to have

 

Speaker: 00:25:14

a dotted line. So product marketing should always have two bosses.

 

Speaker: 00:25:17

One, that's their HR report, which is who their

 

Speaker: 00:25:21

tightest aligned to, but they've got two bosses. They also have

 

Speaker: 00:25:25

either marketing or product. And when you do that, you not only set up

 

Speaker: 00:25:28

the company for success, you set up your product marketing

 

Speaker: 00:25:31

team for success. Otherwise it's like whack a mole with them. So for if you're

 

Speaker: 00:25:35

a product marketing or CPO or

 

Speaker: 00:25:39

a CMO, please make sure you have a Federated team be nice

 

Speaker: 00:25:42

to your product marketing members. That's absolutely great

 

Speaker: 00:25:46

advice. And whenever I've seen organizations that do

 

Speaker: 00:25:49

that effectively, it's been successful. And when it's

 

Speaker: 00:25:53

very clear when organizations aren't doing that successfully and the

 

Speaker: 00:25:56

walls that get created and the siloed

 

Speaker: 00:26:00

mentality that occurs when you do that.

 

Speaker: 00:26:03

Ken, this has been great. I really appreciate that. We've got a lot

 

Speaker: 00:26:07

more that's in the book. We haven't even begun to talk about marketing

 

Speaker: 00:26:10

strategies like product led growth, sales lead growth, et cetera, which we also talk

 

Speaker: 00:26:14

about in the book. I'll save that for maybe another

 

Speaker: 00:26:18

episode or for people to buy the book

 

Speaker: 00:26:23

and read up on it. The book again, is called

 

Speaker: 00:26:26

Business Breakthrough 3.0. It's written by Lee Atchison

 

Speaker: 00:26:30

and Ken Garadovich, and it's available on Amazon.com

 

Speaker: 00:26:34

and almost any other place that business or

 

Speaker: 00:26:37

technical books are available. It's available in a hardcover softcover

 

Speaker: 00:26:42

Kindle ebook version, as well as an Audible version on

 

Speaker: 00:26:47

Audible.com and other audiobook platforms.

 

Speaker: 00:26:50

Thanks, Ken. Thank you very much for coming on the Modern

 

Speaker: 00:26:54

Digital Business podcast. And once again, it's been

 

Speaker: 00:26:57

great working with you on this project and I hope we'll work on future projects

 

Speaker: 00:27:01

as well. Eli, if I could do just one more shout out to your audience.

 

Speaker: 00:27:03

I know this is important to both of us is if you take a

 

Speaker: 00:27:07

read through the book, it helps you, helps your team, helps your team love their

 

Speaker: 00:27:10

jobs more, helps your company move faster. Please send either

 

Speaker: 00:27:14

one of us a note. Just makes us feel great. One of the things we

 

Speaker: 00:27:17

both try to do is just make the world and business just a little bit

 

Speaker: 00:27:20

better. So send us a note and thanks, Lee.

 

Speaker: 00:27:23

Absolutely. And in the Show Notes, I'll make sure to have contact information,

 

Speaker: 00:27:27

of course, for my normal contact information, but I'll also have

 

Speaker: 00:27:31

Ken's contact information so you can reach out to him. And Ken,

 

Speaker: 00:27:35

you're available specifically for speaking engagements as well, is that correct?

 

Speaker: 00:27:38

What I really love doing is speaking at organizations and really helping companies

 

Speaker: 00:27:43

take some of the principles that we teach that we've learned

 

Speaker: 00:27:47

to transform their organization. So if you've got a speaking opportunity to

 

Speaker: 00:27:51

help your organization, please reach out. Love to talk.

 

Speaker: 00:27:54

Ken, thank you you so much for being on this episode.

 

Speaker: 00:27:57

Enjoyed it. Lee. Talk soon.

 

Speaker: 00:28:01

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Speaker: 00:28:05

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Speaker: 00:28:08

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Speaker: 00:28:12

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Speaker: 00:28:17

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Speaker: 00:28:20

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Speaker: 00:28:24

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Speaker: 00:28:27

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Speaker: 00:28:30

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Speaker: 00:28:34

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Speaker: 00:28:48

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Speaker: 00:28:55

And all of these links are included in the Show Notes.

 

Speaker: 00:28:58

Thank you for listening and welcome to the world of the Modern Digital